I think I figured out why puck sucks in dota strikers

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Sir, Jul 20, 2015.

  1. Sir Curveshot when? Banjoballer Zealot Hockey

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    When you cast swap, in banjo and strikers, there is an area in an angle in front of your hero that you can target in which the spell will be cast before turning. If you target in this area, the swap orb will come out before your hero starts turning, and then you will turn to face the target. In banjoball, with very slow turn rates, the swap projectile would hit someone standing beside you before you turned fully to face them, allowing you to swap them with the ball without turning it over. In strikers, with the increased turn rates, this is no longer possible (or at least much more difficult and less viable). Since most of swap's usefulness comes from the ability to create chances from dribbling/close control situations, removing this technique from puck's arsenal severely limits the effectiveness of the hero.

    The situation can be remedied by buffing puck in other regards, which is what has been done thus far. For instance, increasing the projectile speed is what Dayne did in the recent patch. This, in my opinion, is a roundabout way that does not address the key issue. Instead, my suggestion is to allow swap to be cast in any direction without turning. It's a more fun and intuitive buff that will allow the class to be played more aggressively. In addition, I think it's very important that curveshot get added to the game.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
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  2. Biz Top 5 Banjoballer Club Cx

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    You sly mofo.

    But yea, there's a ton of environmental issues outside of the hero itself that make swap very ineffective as opposed to the banjo version.

    The biggest issue I saw when I started playing it was the overall bounciness of the Strikers universe. DH's go flying if they touch eachother, Slark is more slippery, BH makes people fly instead of holding them in a spot, Lina bumps people unpredictably, Pshot has it's own sprint, etc. Overall the targets for swapping are much harder to hit.
    Then, the projectile itself is much larger, being easier to see/predict and with more responsive controls... easier to dodge.

    Even after receiving the huge buff of swapping through goals (which I don't believe Puck has the luxury), swap was still far outside the meta of banjoball and considered fairly weak except for an elite few who played it occasionally or using it as a tree-counter. Being that Tree in strikers is much different and classed mainly as a goalie or a mid-field shooter this niche doesn't really apply.

    Add on your issue and we're at a laundry list of gating that make such a skill-shot based hero ultimately outclassed by everything else.

    All-in-all I think it needs a myriad of changes, not just a faster projectile.

    -It should be able to swap through goals (without affecting goalie players) like in Banjo for sure.
    -Chain-Swap could be looked into, or a swap-back option similar to Blink.
    -Ball swap as a separate R skill, goalie-swap confirmed?
    -Since Puck is practically levitating I think something cool could be enabling it to pass through/over other characters while sprinting (levitating sprint). This could make it easier to get vanilla steals (steal headers!) and ramp up it's defensive role -- or you could do tricky swap plays/avoid people body-blocking your swaps.

    Etc.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
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  3. Dayne Awful Player, Worse Developer Staff Member Banjoballer Wiki Editor Club Cx

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    I've actually thought about this buff before, but I was going to do other things first. I've also had suggestions (for chain swapping @Biz) to make it stack up like 2-3 charges over time with a like mini cooldown between charges so you can't just insta-cast 3 swaps back to back. I actually wanted to do a lot more with Puck this version but got annoyed by various things and ended up not having the time to do what I wanted with it.
     
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  4. Sir Curveshot when? Banjoballer Zealot Hockey

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    Those changes are a bit too much, at least before trying more conservative things. My suggestion is simple but effective.
     
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  5. Dayne Awful Player, Worse Developer Staff Member Banjoballer Wiki Editor Club Cx

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    I said I had suggestions, I wasn't saying I was necessarily going to implement any of them.

    To be completely honest, I think swap's fine for now.
     
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  6. Sir Curveshot when? Banjoballer Zealot Hockey

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    I don't. Nobody picks it in pubs or considers it viable competitively. If you aren't going to implement curveshot for those two reasons then you should not consider puck "fine."
     
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  7. brad Active Member Wiki Editor

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    I think Sir's suggestion to allow it to be cast without turning is honestly perfect. It's a seemingly small buff but will make the hero a lot quicker and more effective imo.
     
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  8. Dayne Awful Player, Worse Developer Staff Member Banjoballer Wiki Editor Club Cx

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    I've seen it used well in pubs by known players. Anyways, those aren't the only reasons I'm not going to bother with curveshot.
     
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  9. MrRektion loldeg supreme Banjoballer

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    Puck is about the same level as usefulness as it was in banjo at this point. Picked rarely by those few that like it and can use it, and useful in many situations just not as good as others. While this suggested buff of all direction swaps is probably good and will likely be implemented at some point, it can just wait. There's too many other things that should take priority and bugging dayne with small things like this detract from larger bugs and issues that YOU YOURSELF HAVE BROUGHT UP. You can't whine about everything, choose your battles and then let the man work.

    Also, curveshot is not happening right now. Get comfortable with that idea.
     
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  10. Sir Curveshot when? Banjoballer Zealot Hockey

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    Dayne just released a version with, as far as i can tell, zero bugfixing in it. You should probably check some facts before you try to go all righteous on people. He clearly doesn't particularly care about them, or at least not enough to include bugfixing in all versions. And I think it is BECAUSE I have contributed (in terms of forum posts) so much towards finding bugs that I am given the right to also make some suggestions about other things.

    Yes I can, and I will. Why should I not report bugs just because he has other things to do? You want me to pretend the bugs don't exist, or that puck is a playable hero at the moment? Dayne can pick and choose what he wants to work on. You're an idiot if you think it's a good idea to ignore reporting bugs just because there are other things that a mapmaker could be doing. There are ALWAYS other things a mapmaker could be doing. Also, he's barely fixed any of the bugs I've reported so I figure I'm just going to post whatever I want. It's not like it matters if he's going to ignore it.

    Deg, you didn't even play banjoball for like a year before it died. I doubt you even know about the swap buffs that were implemented.
     
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  11. Dayne Awful Player, Worse Developer Staff Member Banjoballer Wiki Editor Club Cx

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    Version decreased tackle lag and swap particle lag. This version I was going to fix assists, figure out what's wrong with the ref, further decreasing tackle lag (I honestly can't tell if its laggy for people since I dont lag with it, and work on implementing and touching up the new field (along with a minor number buff to enigma and minor number nerf to night stalker). But deg does have a point, annoyingly bumping threads about bugs that we already know about but didn't immediately allocate time to fix is way more annoying than helpful.
     
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  12. @Ler_GG New Member The Star Strikers

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    no turn rate on the orb = broken on host ping...
     
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  13. brad Active Member Wiki Editor

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    You can't balance the game around things being too strong if you have 0 ping. Balancing around a host advantage is a bad idea.
     
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  14. Tenkz #1 NS Worldwide Club Cx

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    Dota 2 editor sucks ass so I'm not complaining here. That being said, Valve's custom games system also currently sucks ass. Fuck this.
     
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  15. brad Active Member Wiki Editor

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    @Tenkz how is this relevant to the thread in any way
     
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  16. cell_destroyer Member Banjoballer

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