Ideas Referee juggle

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Nilumo, Oct 2, 2015.

  1. Nilumo New Member Club WeLoveBalls

    Country:
    Denmark
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Messages:
    22
    Ratings:
    +12 / 5 / -0
    Referee juggle or whatever you call it:
    When the goalkeeper delays the appearance of the referee by taking the ball just outside the field and back again.

    Problem:
    With this one player can keep the ball from the other players in infinity. Rule of the internet: If something can be abused, someone will.
    I also think the games can go a little stale/slow when we play inhouse games where everyone knows what they are doing. By changing this you could make the profit for putting pressure on the enemy larger. As for right now when the enemy got the ball near their own goal, in my opinion it is rarely beneficial to be aggressive, because when they get ball through the aggression they can easily gain advantages by tempo (am, lina, something). If this was changed maybe putting on aggression could sometimes force the goalkeeper to make a mistake or simple give up the ball, instead of just delaying until the right opportunity.
    And the referee penalty is actually not that harsh in this game. Still requires an enemy to possible receive the ball, or it just works as really long pass.

    Solutions:
    1. Make a 2nd larger goal field (much like real football), which only purpose would be to reset the timer when the ball got outside. All players would still be able to pass through.
    Was my first idea, but probably not a very good one. It would require more lines on the map which is probably preferred to avoid. Still thought it was worth a mention though.

    2. Make the countdown for referee be reversed instead of reset when the ball goes outside the field.
    It seems like it would make trouble when the ball goes out of the field to an enemy and back in very quickly, which needs some kind of workaround.

    3. Make the countdown reset on first pass(or steal)
    Was Dayne's idea, which I first thought would be harsh but it has kinda grown on me. It would require two people to abuse it, and still be very easy to counter by just one enemy. It would put a lot of pressure on the goalkeeper, which could be a good thing, as I talked about earlier.

    But there might be a even better solution out there, so if you got any ideas or comments about this, speak!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Dayne Awful Player, Worse Developer Staff Member Banjoballer Wiki Editor Club Cx

    Country:
    Croatia
    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Messages:
    410
    Ratings:
    +170 / 32 / -21
    I'm down for 2 or 3, but 1 just adds too much unnecessary complexity. If anything I'll just add some additional things so it isn't OVERLY harsh to the goalie (like the ball only starting the timer after it touches the goalie or if it's standing still in the goal).
     
  3. K1ngfisher QOP spammer SEA Chief Wiki Editor Banjoballer

    Country:
    Maldives
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Ratings:
    +44 / 15 / -5
    You can always predict the goalie trying to pull it off and stop him so the referee would come out.

    It has no offensive implications nor provide any way for the enemy team to counter attack. If dota strikers was a timed game I would definitely like this to be changed however since it doesn't provide any advantages other than messing up the enemy formations for awhile it's definitely a part of the game. I would suggest to try not to fix what ain't broken.

    Now time for my idea, it's similar to the "zone" idea. Current rules still apply. Referee comes out if the keeper has kept the ball for longer than 15 seconds. The timer is reverted to normal after 3 seconds. As for the penalty, instead of roshan coming out and punting the ball, roshan punts the keeper instead and passes the ball to the nearest enemy player. To compensate, the keeper is able to still be keeper after leaving the zone for 1 second if he has stayed in the keeper zone for longer than 5 seconds. (Would help for keepers suddenly getting pushed out cause of his teammates)
     
  4. Nilumo New Member Club WeLoveBalls

    Country:
    Denmark
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Messages:
    22
    Ratings:
    +12 / 5 / -0
    You may be able to predict it, but any decent gk would just use the field to his advantages. It would take 3 enemies to make sure you cannot referee juggle, which would make you in a significant disadvantages if it does get passed.


    That is exactly what it does. What you usually will see is both teams take distance to the gk after he/she got the ball. The teammates do it to be passable and enemies do it because if they keep the pressure on the gk, they will be so far behind if he successfully pass the ball, and it is not worth it. So in the current state, the better strategy is to give the gk space, and try make each other player non-passable and wait for a mistake.
    By changing this it would maybe give a option for the enemies to play more aggressive and force the ball of the gk instead of waiting for them to get the ball up the other end of the map, get the ball back, and repeat. This is what I meant by the gameplay sometimes getting stale.

    Seems like a really weird philosophy when designing games. Almost every wc3 mod have gotten better over the the many year of development. Definitely not by thinking that.
    I don't think it is broken, but still I do think it can get better.
     
  5. K1ngfisher QOP spammer SEA Chief Wiki Editor Banjoballer

    Country:
    Maldives
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Ratings:
    +44 / 15 / -5
    I'm somewhat biased from the fact that I spam QOP and play on high ping servers all day.

    Only 1. The other 2 would be marking potential pass routes and rotate accordingly. If the goalie is not an invoker, he is going to have a hard time clearing the ball.

    It's as if players can't do the same. Special abilities can also force the goalie to pass the ball such as earthshaker's slam forcing him back into the goal. This is ofcourse, taking into account a well-coordinated team.

    I'd like to think of this as a part of strategy. You can't stop the pass altogether. A highly mobile team can also catchup for the defense. Current meta of AM and Lina is highly mobile

    I thought that was the core of strikers? Chances to score and getting the ball across the map? I'm ok with giving a penalty to keepers who are trolling however taking out basic fundamentals is quite risky.

    Gee, it's just a suggestion, not a principle. Of course changes must be made in order to proceed, sometimes it's good to go for the greater risk in order to obtain the greater reward. On the other hand I wouldn't want this game to become ded just because of newb gks getting highly pressured by players who are more skilful. Need to strike a balance somewhere. If we din't have a technique like this, I doubt some gks would be able to clear the ball safely.
     
  6. Dayne Awful Player, Worse Developer Staff Member Banjoballer Wiki Editor Club Cx

    Country:
    Croatia
    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Messages:
    410
    Ratings:
    +170 / 32 / -21
    While I agree with a lot of your points Kingfisher, I do still feel that the goal can be made better with the proper change. I'm not necessarily saying we should heavily increase pressure, but I do feel like there's certain changes that could be made that would allow for there to be some pressure. Like, right now any even semi decent goalie can hold the ball infinitely without any real work. While I'm not saying that being able to juggle the ball is necessarily a bad thing, I do think that it shouldn't be as easy as it is right now.
     
  7. Nilumo New Member Club WeLoveBalls

    Country:
    Denmark
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Messages:
    22
    Ratings:
    +12 / 5 / -0
    Not sure how we disagree about this. The way I see it, is you need 3 players because you have to cover each side of the penalty area, or else the goalkeeper will just seek out the last gab, as he/she always has the shorter route. Both done and seen people do this against two player trying to deny referee juggle.

    That is actually a quite interesting play. There is only two abilities able to go through the enemy penalty area, slam, and black hole. Not seen people use slam for this reason, but what I imagine would happen is it would be easier to pass the ball, as everyone close will be shoveled to the side, and the gk would be in air and therefor able to pass the ball further than usual. Probably not easy with huge delay, but honestly I don't think we should balance the game for that.
    No idea how black hole works with referee.


    Think it is a big stretch to say this... Not sure how you imagine this would change the game, but I doubt it would be changing the fundamentals. This at most might be changing the meta, but that I'm not even sure it would go that far.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2015
  8. K1ngfisher QOP spammer SEA Chief Wiki Editor Banjoballer

    Country:
    Maldives
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Ratings:
    +44 / 15 / -5
    My view: one guy gets the side the gk's going to and 1 lower mid and upper mid. If he's moving to other side the guy on furthest from the keeper covers the side and the other 2 react accordingly. How much low or upper or proximity to the penalty area depends on the enemy's movements.

    The scenario I'm talking about is where the goalie gets pushed inside the goal, where it is dangerous for him to pass since it would turn into an own goal, reduces the pass area and shaves off time. Unless ofcourse the gk predicts the slam and passes instantly, even then the ES should slam with some distance between him and the keeper. The penalty area is usually wide enough if the gk sticks closer to the goal. Passing while blackhole'd sometimes don't work. I'd rather not think about it.

    I must have misunderstood then. I'm ok with stopping people from doing this infinitely. Well it definitely would make the team without the ball play more defensively, now that I think about it, the keeper would always have to rely on their teammates to always be there for the him. Horrifying for pubbers. It would definitely increase the pace of the game, overall it looks like a good change if the keeper can get the ball out. Else the keeper gonna get flamed by the team even if he did his best. Definitely horrifying for pub goalies.
     
  9. Nilumo New Member Club WeLoveBalls

    Country:
    Denmark
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Messages:
    22
    Ratings:
    +12 / 5 / -0
    Ah ok, I would still count that as 3 in my book. They all 3 has to stay pretty close to the penalty area anyways, and if the keeper shoots the ball past any of them, it is basically a 3 vs their keeper. I don't think that would be a legit strategy even in the perfect world.

    Yeah, might make some hard choices where you will be forced to dribble outside the penalty area as goalkeeper, because your teammates are non-passable. And sometimes it will fail, but it might also force people to play together in pubgames, which could be a good thing(but probably also even more frustrating :D).
     
  10. eeggee New Member

    Country:
    Russian Federation
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Messages:
    3
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    Being able to hold ball for long time makes it easy to wait untill skills off cooldown, like echo slam.
    Can be abused by doing shaker+invoker combo by just sitting in the goal and doing it as soon as slam off cd.
    Pretty sure its hard to mess with the combo if invoker is goalie and shaker outside, cause all invoker needs to do is sit in goal till cd, than come to any corner (reset timer here again if needed) and turn back. Than shaker walks up, slams and BOOM easy fullscreen bouncing ball with very little risks and high chance to go in to the enemy goal.
     

Share This Page